Talk:Mitt Romney

This article is part of WikiProject Massachusetts, an effort to create, expand, and improve Massachusetts-related articles to a feature-quality standard.

Contents 1 Warren Tolman? 2 Bias 3 Birthplace 4 Biography 5 The issue of his faith 6 Gay Marriage Issues 7 His Excellency 8 Swahili 9 Legislators defending drunk drivers? 10 Opinion Adjectives

Warren Tolman?

Warren Tolman ran in that race too. While I know his share of the vote was not large, I find it hard to believe that it was less than the 1% that Carla Howell got. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:19, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Warren Tolman was one of five candidates for Massachusetts governor who competed in the Democratic Party primary in 2002. The other four candidates were Shannon O'Brien, Tom Birmingham, Robert Reich, and Steve Grossman. Shannon O'Brien won the primary election, and was the only Democrat whose name appeared on the final ballot in November 2002.

Bias

This sentence in the article seems a little negative. I think it violates the NPOV 'rule'.

"When polls showed Romney's popularity starting to slip, while state support for same-sex marriage and opposition to an amendment began to rise, Romney scaled back his anti-gay efforts, at least for the rest of 2004."

Mind if I give a shot at cleaning it up?

DanielAmelang

I based that on polling information from summer/early fall 2004, so it wasn't just any bias on my part. I guess I should not have assumed that is why he stopped his homophobic language, especially since he's back in full force with all that stuff now. If you want to clean it up, be my guest. --JamesB3 10:56, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I see. Well, this was my best shot at a clean up: "Perhaps due to lack of support manifested in the polls, Romney temporary suspended his efforts towards an amendment.". I put in the 'perhaps' because I feel squirmish about second-guessing Romney's reasons. But, since this was just a brief change in behavior, I decided to just leave the whole thing out. Let me know if that's a problem, I'm far from immovable on this. --Dan 20:47, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Birthplace

Natural-born citizen says Romney was born in Mexico, but this article says Detroit. Which one is correct? CryptoDerk 20:31, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

Looks like neither. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/vote2002/races/ma_governor.html says Bloomfield, Michigan (close to Detroit, I think), and I trust PBS. Any other ideas? --Dan 05:51, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Mitt was born in the USA. His dad was already a prominent politician when before he was born. --RyanKnoll 14:34, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Biography

I was surprised to read that Romney graduated from Brigham Young - especially as i had heard him speak anectdotally of Stanford. I googled it. Romney was valedictorian at Brigham Young according to an article located at this website: http://www.nationalreview.com/miller/miller200506031216.asp">

"Romney returned home and married Ann, his high-school sweetheart, when he was 22 and she was 19. Though he attended Stanford for two semesters, he transferred to Brigham Young University and became the valedictorian. "

Is that true? If so, should(nt) something like that be included in his bio?

-Thomas

The issue of his faith

Will somebody mention how such a challenge it would be for Romney to run in 2008, considering how southern Protestants, including Jerry Falwell, take issue with the Mormon religion? Would any conservatives here like to try mentioning this? -Amit

No, because it is not likely it will be an issue, and certainly not an NPOV one. If southern Protestants, as you call them, do complain about him being a Mormon, then it will become an issue you can talk about here. Far more likely is the anti-religious wingnuts of the Democratic Party will come up with positively looney accusations. Except this didn't quite work against Bush, and would likely inspire those who are religious to side with Romney. And I believe a lot of people wouldn't buy it, because Anti-Mormons tend to be much loonier than the "George Bush destroyed the Twin Towers" crowd. Jgardner 17:20, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Falwell even had many Mormon leaders in his Moral Majority group in the early 80's, which is now the Christian Coalition led by Pat Robertson. Politically, Romney is one of the strongest advocates for Christian-like and conservative positions (see his advocacy for the Federal Marriage Amendmnet)...and Christian leaders understand this.

DoorFrame has moved information about Romney's religion to the opening paragraph. I'm moving this point further down the article: looking at a random selection of other governors' entries, it looks like we don't put their religions so high up their entries, and I don't see any reason to single out Romney for special treatment. So far as I am aware, his religion does not have "headline" influence on his performance as governor, so it seems slightly POV to stress it. WMMartin 13:55, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Gay Marriage Issues

I am reverting the edits of User:JamesB3 because:

1. Removed properly sourced info

2. Added incorrect info (e.g., protestant that replaced non-religious groups)

3. The groups listed their own stated purpose – replacing it with a user’s interpretation is POV

4. Listing Log Cabin Republicans as a “moderate” group based on gay issues is entirely POV

5. To only list 1 group is POV – lots of groups have praised and supported Romney

6. There is no stated basis for the flip flopping criticism

--Noitall 23:35, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Log Cabin Republicans describe themselves as a moderate group, and Romney accepted their endorsement, so I think it's more than simply my POV. Their purpose is to ban civil unions and same-sex marriage, which isn't simply my POV. The groups you listed (American Family Association, Black Ministerial Alliance, and so on) are run mainly by Protestant organizations, and are not non-religious as far as I know. The reason I revised the info is because it seemed excessive and more fitting for a separate entry on those groups, not on Romney himself. Did you need to include a full typed link, a list of every single group in this coalition, etc. just for a paragraph on Romney's support of their amendment? And the stated basis for his flip-flopping was his support for last year's pro-civil union amendment, followed by this year's revokation of that support.

If you are going to remove anything that I write, at least please try to trim down your own comments. I don't know if you agree with these people and that is why you put so much detail, but something crisper would be far more effective. --JamesB3 07:59, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Ok, on the issues:

On Log Cabin Republicans, groups can describe their purpose, but whether they are moderate or not is described by others. The only way to get around this is to state the objective of Log Cabin Republicans (promote pro-gay issues within the GOP) and state they THEY identify themselves as moderate, which of course lengthens the article and looks sort of ridiculous, since it clearly is not true. And politicians accept the endorsement of thousands of individuals and groups, including the ones I listed, and noting one select group may be POV. It would probably be acceptable to state, "For his actions, Romney was criticized by Log Cabin Republicans, which promotes pro-gay issues within the GOP and had endorsed him in 2002."

On the orgs, it could be summarized with the words "conservative and family", but I think this does not adequately describe the nature of the breadth of the coalition or its local and national roots.

On the flip flopping, there would need to be more detail and context and sources rather than the conclusory "flip flopping."

--Noitall 13:59, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

That's fine, I will be happy to add more details about the flip-flopping.

I don't see the breadth of this coalition. Catholic and fundamentalist Christian organizations have teamed up before, and they have swarmed in on Massachusetts before, in 2001, in 2002, in 2003, in 2004, to try to pass amendments to ban gay marriage. Some of them aren't as powerful as their names may suggest (mainly the MA Family Institute). While it's certainly important to note that they are working together, I still don't see why every part of their organization needs to be mentioned in this article. Wouldn't it be better to put a link to their site in Romney's article and let people see the organization for themselves? --JamesB3 20:30, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sure, I see the point, but the orgs should be summarized properly.

--Noitall 21:03, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, that's true, but all I am saying is that the orgs are included in a link to the website. --JamesB3 22:55, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Feel free to try a new edit taking into account my comments. I won't revert but may tweek.

--Noitall 01:53, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

I find your campaign against 'POV' in certain articles/categories fascinating when you make statements such as "clearly not true" regarding LCR staking out their position as moderate. There is no way to establish truth about something that is inherently opinion (a position along a political scale). Apparently you see your beliefs as normative and centrist, and in doing so you introduce your own POV into these articles. I'm most curious whether it is simply a case of blinders or a subtle, orchestrated propaganda effort. Autiger 05:25, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

His Excellency

The title of the Governor of Massachusetts is His Excellency. I don't think that Mitt Romney is excellent -- as a Massachusetts citizen, I think that he is a terrible governor. But, that's the title he gets, because that's what Massachusetts law says. It's a silly title, yes, but it is interesting for its unique nature, its history, and as a remnant of Massachusetts' British past. So, please don't remove it, unlikeable as he is. --AaronS 17:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that was true. Forgive me. AgentFade2Black 21:36 10 December 2005 (UTC)

No problem! --AaronS 03:14, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm disagreeing here. Every person seems to have some title these days, especially government officials. I mean: why not put "Honorable" in front of every Congressman's name? While I'm at it, why not put "his excellency" in front of the names of all the previous governors? It's just excessive. Does Kerry Healey get it too? How about Acting Governors? My point is that maybe they're called His Excellency in formal settings, but it's just excessive in an encyclopedia article. --Mark Adler (Markles) 03:27, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that the title is interesting, unique, and historical enough to be included in the article. How are two simple words excessive if they express a unique fact about the person in question? I'm sorry, but you just haven't provided a good enough reason not to include the title. It is hardly superfluous, and it would appear to be encyclopaedic to me. --AaronS 05:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

he's called His Excellency in all official documents. I think it should stay in the article. it's just two words, anyways.--Alhutch 05:14, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm a lifelong MA resident and never knew this. I think it's kinda neat! Anyway, was Jane Swift officially referred to as "Her Excellency"? -- DocSigma 16:23, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Jane Swift was referred to as Her Excellency. I just did a quick google search of 'Jane Swift Her Excellency', and got a bunch of executive orders she signed while in office.--Alhutch 17:36, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I had never heard of this either. I think it's a neat little thing to have, maybe with a link directing people to the origins of the phrase? --badlydrawnjeff 16:29, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Sure it's interesting. I strongly agree! Put it in the article that the Governor is called "His excellency" but don't put it in the beginning as if it's his name.

I'm concerned about consistency across other Wikipedia articles.

For example, the link on the Romney article to His Excellency (thank you, badlydrawnjeff) redirects to Excellency. That article gives as its first example, Jacques Chirac. The Jacques Chirac article does not start, "His Excellency Jacques René Chirac … is a French politician who is currently President of the French Republic." Rather it just states his name: "Jacques René Chirac … is a French politician who is currently President of the French Republic." It even states that Chirac is a Co-Prince of Andorra but the article didn't start, "Prince Jacques René Chirac."

Back to the Excellency article…. It states "New England governors have retained the title of excellency, though it is rarely used."

Even the article about Queen Elizabeth doesn't start "Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II…"

Mark Adler (Markles) 19:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, without being difficult...maybe they should? I mean, I don't know of any WP policy on titles, the first I thought of was Elton John, who's listed as "Sir." I know knighthood isn't quite the same as this, but I don't think it's inconsistent or anything to add them. I'm not going to rush over to the Chirac article and add "His excellency" (yet, teehee), but I think it's an interesting situation. --badlydrawnjeff 20:09, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, maybe they should. I don't know of any policy on titles. What I do know is that if the information is interesting, unique, relevant, and historically important, it should definitely be included in some way. Perhaps the article should not start with "His Excellency", but it should at least be in the infobox. I think that it's extremely disagreeable to nix it for purely aesthetic reasons.--AaronS 21:07, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

well said.--Alhutch 21:08, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

You know, that's a great idea. How about moving it to the infobox. I believe that's how Queen Elizabeth has it. Thanks for the great idea! -Mark Adler (Markles) 21:18, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I like the infobox idea, too. A request - let's keep it wikified so people don't pull a WTF when they see it. --badlydrawnjeff 21:19, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I support the infobox plan and keeping it wikified. let's make it happen.--Alhutch 21:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't see it on the infobox yet.--Alhutch 21:25, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Because I'm a wee bit stupid and clicked "save" instead of "preview." All better now. --badlydrawnjeff 21:27, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

nice job there. all is well on the mitt romney article.--Alhutch 21:35, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Nearly a week later, I fell upon this in the style guide. The infobox was the correct place to put it. Glad we were able to come to the correct conclusion. --badlydrawnjeff 21:20, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

On 1/14 I replaced "His Excellency" in the info box. This is indeed the correct title. Any attempts to change this will be reverted. Michael16G

No no, where the style guide says to use an infobox, they mean one like Template:Infobox UKkingstyles, not the main larger Infobox. -- Netoholic @ 07:10, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

It appears that disputes over the image quality and the use of "His Excellency" are actually straw men to justify reverting away from the infobox being used for the governors of all other US states, thus I've reverted. — FREAK OF NUR_xTURE (TALK) 20:53, Jan. 15, 2006

Use of "His Excellency" is not proper in the infobox or in giving Romney's name at the beginning of the article. Mentioning later in the article that he has such a title wouldn't violate the MoS, but it also wouldn't make sense, because it's nothing personal to him (like Elton John's CBE). Instead, it goes with the office. It's properly included in the article on Governor of Massachusetts, along with other facts about the office, and Romney's bio properly links to Governor of Massachusetts. Note that Romney's bio also doesn't state that the Governor gets no official residence, which is probably more important than the "His Excellency" business, but is omitted for the same reason -- it's also in the Governor of Massachusetts article. JamesMLane 04:42, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

It is my understanding that honorific prefixes apply to people for as long as they hold office and for the rest of their lives. I'm sure that the MGL has something to say about it. --AaronS 16:00, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

The title should be taken out. We don't include honorific prefixes for other people either. Discuss the title in the article if you wish, but take it out away from the infobox. --Apoc2400 07:50, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Please note the style guide. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 12:34, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Swahili

I am curious how he became acquainted with Swahili. I tried doing a simple Google search on this, but the only results mentioning both the governor and Swahili were though that drew from wikipedia as a source. I don't doubt he speaks some Swahili, I'm just wondering if there is more information for this (or perhaps a source).

Legislators defending drunk drivers?

I removed the sentence "Many members of the legislature were themselves trial lawyers and made their living defending repeat drunk drivers" because it does not have a source. I googled the topic and found references that said there were many lawyers in the legislature but did not say that they made their living defending repeat drunk drivers. --140.247.239.24 18:57, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I change the Melanie's bill line from "many in the legislature" to "prominent legislators" and sourced it. I googled Melanie's bill and found this line from a Boston area newspaper : "Both the House and Senate previously approved bills that contained the provision, but it was stricken by a conference committee before the House gave the bill its approval Wednesday. Five of the six members of the committee are lawyers who have represented drunken driving defendants."

I think [[1]]

is a better source for this point

Opinion Adjectives

Which is better in an encyclopedia:
a) Romney recently advocated a nationwide focus on education ... OR
b) Romney recently took a powerful position on education, advocating a nationwide focus on education ...

a) the Governor filed amendments to restore some of the provisions that had been omitted by the legislature OR
b) the Governor filed amendments to restore some of the key provisions that had been omitted by the legislature

a) the legislation that reached the Governor’s desk bore little resemblance to Romney’s original plan OR
b) the legislation that reached the Governor’s desk bared little resemblance to Romney’s original plan <deliberate reinsertion of a grammar error?>

a) Romney has offered an initiative to provide health insurance ... OR
b) Romney has offered a bold initiative to provide health insurance ...